Leading with Confidence and Courage with Debi Brown

Host Chelsea Brown was raised by a mother who instilled within her a passion to see the world, meet new people and be part of something bigger than herself. This episode, we get to meet her. Debi Brown is a dynamic leader who inspires excellence: Empathetic, focused on integrity, and self-described “bossy with a hug”, Debi advocates for a corporate environment with fewer bullies and more heroes. Debi has achieved major success in banking technology and operations, and is currently CEO and Founder of Clarity Management Group. She is also the author of the New York Times noted book: It’s all in the Delivery: How to Move Mountains without Crushing the Villagers.

Throughout her career, Debi has worked with large multinational organizations such as Santander Bank US, TD Bank, and CIBC; managing transitional change, organizational restructuring, mergers and acquisitions and more. Along the way, she’s learned a lot about leadership and navigating the corporate world as a woman. She’s shares what she's learned with The Millie Podcast listeners.

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Debi Brown: Every day, there is something that will give you reason to question yourself, whether it's something you did or something you know you didn't do as good as you wanted to do, or as perfect as you wanted to do. It's especially hard when somebody hits at your sensitive areas.

Chelsea Brown: My mother instilled in me this need to see the world, to meet new people, to be part of something bigger. I remember her traveling for work all over the world to places like Singapore and living in London and New York City. What stood out, even as a kid, was that my mom was working in a male dominated industry and had everyone's respect and ear. When she walks into a room, people listen including me and my two brothers, and my father.

Debi: It's hard being a young mom. I'm sure I wasn't the best. I think what I have is the passion and discipline to living your life in a certain way, and it's a very rewarding.

Chelsea: Her accomplishments could take up the entire podcast, so I will give you the abbreviated version. Debi has achieved major success in banking technology and operations. She is currently CEO and founder of Clarity Management Group, a consulting firm that specializes in corporate wide program delivery and turnaround implementation support. Throughout her career, she has worked with large multinational organizations such as Santander Bank, TD Bank, Deutsche Bank, and CIBC managing transitional change, large organizational restructuring, refinancing, leadership advisory, mergers and acquisitions, and more.

Debi: Don't try to be successful in your career. Try to enjoy your work and try and give back. If you do that, you actually will wake up one day and realize that you've achieved the success that, when you were younger, you aspired to.

Chelsea: Debi Brown is a dynamic leader who excellence. Iron willed, empathetic, focused on integrity, and self-described bossy with a hug. I can vouch for that. Debi advocates for a corporate environment with fewer bullies and more heroes. How are you from 10 to 20 minutes ago when we last talked?

Debi: I'm good, excited, interested, fascinated.

Chelsea: You're my mom. Thanks.

Debi: Last time I checked.

Chelsea: Obviously I see you in a different way than other people, but I'm still in awe of everything you've accomplished. How did you get your start? When you first started, no job was too small.

Debi: Menial, and still isn't actually. It's funny because I watch the next generation wants to be successful right off the bat, but you only are as successful as you work hard to be. When I started, I had bills to pay. I couldn't finish my education because your eldest brother was born and I couldn't stay in school. So, I went to work and I had learned computers in high school. I was very fortunate. I was raised in a really good neighbourhood, and I went to a very good school. It wasn't a private school. It was a public school, but it was a very good school. So, I had computer skills and I loved them. I thought it was very cool.

I worked on a computer that was called the AES Superplus. It was as big as our fireplace, it feels like. It was huge, but I really loved it. I really loved learning it. I got jobs doing that, but back then, companies weren't, at that time, paying for full time Word processing experts, or computer entry experts. They were hiring so many hours a week of it. I started, I said, I don't care, that's if I can get work that way, that's what I'll do, and I ended up being one of the busiest most requested Word processing data entry people, and I was able to just learn more and more and more as I did it. I was very fortunate. It just grew one thing after another, after another. Then your father convinced me to bump up my rate and go independent. He believed in me. So, I said, "Okay," all nervous, and I did it, and the rest is history.

Chelsea: Did you ever find it difficult to convince people you could deliver and perform, and how did you prove yourself?

Debi: It's interesting because I talk about the fact that people who stand up and pound their feet to be listened to, or quote their resume to be listened to, or to win an argument are doing it the wrong way. All that does is say you know how to pound your foot, that's it. It's interesting, I remember there was a massive program I was actually called to, to go help them in Europe, and everybody was in disarray with the way to do it. My heart felt so strongly about how we could get it done. I really, really believed in a path. I could feel it. I could see it. I really felt strongly about it. I thought, how do I convince them that this is the right thing to do?

I thought about because I said so, because I've done it, because you should listen to me, because you have no other options, so why not try it? All those things went through my head, and I thought, none of these guys, and they were all men, most people I work with, even today, are all men would listen, I knew they wouldn't. So, I sat two of them down, who I knew always did the right thing. The two people who were influential, who always did the right thing. I sat them down, I actually said, "Let's go grab some dinner." At that point, we had been working, I think from 5:00 AM until about 9:00 at night with this problem.

I just sat there and I just told them my vision. What I learned then is, if you can spot the person with power or influence, that always tries to listen and do the right thing, that they will listen to you. So, if you can get their ear and you can tell them your vision, you truly are telling them what your heart believes will work, they will listen, and they did. We did it and it worked. Thank God. It would have been pretty awful if it didn't because it was billions of dollars on the line. In that case, it did, and then I gained a reputation of somebody you should listen to. Then I became the person that could help other people's ideas come to life.

Chelsea: I heard a quote recently, and it said a person's dignity is inside of them and no one can take that away. It just reminded me of you. How do you find the courage through everything?

Debi: It's interesting. I wish you could say you find courage or you have courage. People say, "Geez, you're so courageous," when certain things happen. No, I think life is something you do on purpose to get through it, to survive it. If you do it with trying to do the right thing, as often as you can, and to not give in to the instant feeling of, oh, woe's me. That's not, to me, courageous. That's just a choice you make on trying to get through the day in a really good way.

The world is very hard. I mean, especially now, but I think I read something similar to that, where if you think about the people that lived through the 1919 flu, and the World War I and World War II, what we're living through now is nothing compared to that, the courage of living through and fighting for rights and black rights, women's rights, human rights, all of those. I think what I have is the passion to be proud that every day I tried to do the right thing, even when it was easier to not do the right thing, I tried to do the right thing. I know that people think, well, courage, but it's not ... It's discipline and commitment to living your life in a certain way.

It's a very rewarding, very selfish in a way, because it's very rewarding that every day, at the end of the day, you can look back on the day and know that you actually achieved your goal to try and do the right thing that day. If I could do the same thing counting calories, that would be great. But it's just not in the cards.

Chelsea: How did you receive pushback from men? Let's get into that.

Debi: Where do you start? It's interesting. First of all, I never paid attention to it. I'm not your supermodel walking off the runway in a $1,000 suit showing up to work. It's just not who I am. I think the negative of men ,when I started, worked to my positive, just because I wasn't somebody who they would target as a female. I found them targeting more competitive bossiness. Like the whole thing AOC is dealing with right now in the US. If somebody said the B word, and I've been called it. I was so impressed by her, by what she did to respond to it. I was so impressed.

Chelsea: I watched it like five times.

Debi: I know. I was so impressed. There was one time where this guy, he was very, very powerful and very influential, and he referred to me in a way that really upset me. I looked at him and I said, "You know what? One day you're really going to regret that you just said that." He looked at me like, whatever. About eight months later, we were in a major acquisition and we were going through all of the negotiation with the company that we were acquiring, and they needed somebody to facilitate where there was trouble. So, I helped them facilitate it. The following winter, I was in New York City, right down on Liberty Street.

At the time, it was part of a building that was Bankers Trust Plaza, and a parking lot beside where managing directors were allowed to park. It was an outdoor parking lot. I went into my car, and there was snow. It was winter, so there was snow everywhere. I started my car, and all of a sudden, somebody is cleaning my car. I'm like, who the heck is cleaning the snow off my car. So, I stepped out of my car and looked, and it was this gentleman, and he said, "I owe you one and you were right." I was like, wow.

That was impressive, because I mean, again, at the heart of it, he was an idiot, not an evil human. If I treated him like an evil human, and then was bitter by it, I would have hurt myself and he wouldn't have listened at the time. The fact that he learned and listened and then responded with, "I owe you one, so you don't worry, I'll get your car," it was really cool to see. I think men are absolutely, at the core, decent, for the most part. I think there are some that are just downright. Like AOC did, they need to be called out, because he didn't apologize. He gave an answer he thought would be accepted to get him out of the doghouse.

That's the difference. Whereas this particular human actually did an action that wasn't, woe, me. It was, you know what? I was an idiot, and I'm really sorry. I just learned that, call it appropriately, but don't let it take you down. Do not let it take you down.

Chelsea: I could just picture you in New York, this big executive, one of the only women in the room, and you have to muster up the courage to do that. Surely, you've had moments of doubt. I know you have. Did you ever feel like you wanted to give up?

Debi: Every single day there is something that will give you reason to question yourself, whether it's something you did or is something you know you didn't do as good as you wanted to do, or as perfect as you wanted to do. It's especially hard when somebody hits at your sensitive areas, right? Where you are sensitive. It's very, very tough because you have to bounce back. One of the women on my team and I were talking about this one particular person who has this job every day to make everybody else's life miserable. It doesn't quite matter who it is. They just make everybody's life miserable, and it makes their life better, it seems, because I don't know any other reason why they would want to do it.

There are people that just love to show every day, how great they are, and they're not great. There are times where I just don't even want to be in the world. I just want to be in my living room streaming Netflix and eating popcorn.

Chelsea: With comfy pants on.

Debi: With comfy pants on. I don't want anything to do with work or what's going on in the world or opinions. I don't want to debate anything. I just want to hide away, but something pulls me out and makes me remember that 95% of our day is just doing the right thing as we believe, and 5% of our day is trying to take a deep breath. Now, when it's 90% the other way, I think you have to question what you're doing, because you have to say, okay, well, something must be wrong. I must be doing something wrong. But again, I think, for the most part, you have those moments, and as you said, put your comfy pants on, eat popcorn, a lot of it, with a lot of butter and salt on it.

It's so tough to pull yourself back to, you know what? Whether you triggered something unintentionally and now you feel badly for it, or whether you really, really believe that this person speaking to you is out of their mind, you have compartmentalize, you have to get it out of your psyche, or you will destroy yourself. Always reflect, take a moment and say, okay, is this me, or is this them? Most times, it's a combination of both. But again, if you go down on it, every day you go down on every little thing that you did not perfectly, you will never get out of bed. You'll never make a difference.

I believe the people trying to make a difference will actually make the most trip-ups when it comes to other people agreeing with them, and that just means that you're making trouble, good trouble, as a recent political influencer in the US just passed away, he said, good trouble. Be up to some good trouble. If you're up to good trouble, you're going to someone off, and you just have to move on. It's hard to do, but you have to do it. You just have to do it.

Chelsea: You have more than 25 years of executive leadership and program delivery experience, and you decided to bring that knowledge to a wider audience with a publication of your New York Times noted program management book, it's all in the delivery, How to Move Mountains Without Crushing the Villagers. Why was this book so important for you to write, and what is happening in the corporate culture that makes a book like this necessary? Did you encounter bullying coming up through the ranks?

Debi: I did, of course, but what really bothered me more was witnessing the bullying of others, and the fact that there were so many people that actually bully out of self preservation, not out of evil intent. I thought, if they had a few more skillsets, tools in the toolbox to work with, then maybe they wouldn't bully as much. So, if I'm, let's say I'm a single dad and I have three kids at home, and my job pays me really well, and I'm able to do well by my children. I go to work and the project, or the department, or the sales quotas are not going so well, and I don't have the tools to get people to be a little bit more organized, or to work together, or to get through a challenge, then I'm going to yell at them, and I'm going to bully them.

That's the reality. Very few of the bullies in the workplace actually are obsessed with being a bully. I know two of them that I think they just love it. There are two people that more and more, I see every day that do nothing, but go out of their way to make other people's lives miserable. I didn't write the book for them, because they'll never read it. I had to get out there, guys, girls, you do not need to go to work on a bad day and make it worse for everybody else. You actually have some pretty cool things that you can do that make it better.

I worked hard to always make everybody's life better because I was raised in a very aggressive household, and so I never wanted people to feel bad about themselves or to feel like they weren't doing things properly because they didn't fold the tea towels perfectly. I want people to be happy and to have a good day.

Chelsea: What do you think the difference between vulnerability and insecurity is?

Debi: Interesting. Very good question.

Chelsea: Just because it plays on us. Sometimes you worry about coming off soft, just because we're in touch with our EQ.

Debi: If I'm vulnerable or I show a vulnerability, I actually think that's strength. I just finished reading Donald Trump's, his niece's book, Mary Trumps. What I thought was so fascinating about her synopsis of him, he is so fixated on being right, and never seemingly weak. That he is so insecure about his capability to be seen by others as a leader that he doesn't show vulnerability. He would never share vulnerability. Vulnerable to me is, if I share with a colleague that I'm worried about a deadline, so if I say, "Guys, I'm really worried about our ability to get this done and I think we're vulnerable in these three areas, and I think I am vulnerable in how I can help you with it." People are amazing.

They will pull together because you shared a weakness, you shared a worry, you shared a vulnerability, you exposed part of your soul to the team, and they all rallied. Insecurity is when I'm so afraid for anybody to see that I'm worried, I actually want to hide that insecurity. I generally will fake it and therefore be not genuine and not transparent. So, I'm telling the team, "You need to go do this, you need to do that because I said so." Another human being can sense when you're afraid. If it comes across as orders in order to hide your insecurity, you're just hurting yourself and hurting the team.

I like being vulnerable. I like saying, I'm worried about this, or I think this is there. I don't like being seen as falling apart. I like to be in control. You know that because you're my daughter. I like to be seen as control because I don't want anybody to feel that we're not going to get through it, but I still think it's okay to be vulnerable.

Chelsea: What advice do you have for people dealing with an ego-driven boss?

Debi: First and foremost, anybody that you come into contact with, whether it's your boss or your friend or somebody who you are dependent on for something, dependent on because they rate your rating, or they can call somebody and get you in trouble, whatever influence they have. First and foremost, you need to in your head realize, just because they're an egomaniac does not mean that you need to instantly be out of control, or to worry that you have to perform perfectly. The first thing you have to do is not acknowledge their egomania, not acknowledge it at all.

You cannot, because the minute you do, you are not able to see who they really are. You're only able to be afraid of them. I do one of three things. The first thing is you just do your job the best that you can do, or you approach the conversation you're nervous about the best that you can without any attention of their mania at all. Second, you go in and if their mania makes it impossible for you to get through it, you have two choices, you get yourself out of the situation or you call them on it. I've done both. I had a senior, very influential client, who years and years ago called me and a couple other colleagues in to present a topic.

Within four and a half seconds, this human was going on and on about their opinions. They walked into the room with a view, and it didn't matter what we were to say. They had that view, and went on a rant about it. I said, you know what? I think you should just keep going the way you're going, and don't even ask us because you really don't want to hear what we have to say. You have to be a little bit sensitive to who that human is because I've had different situations. I've had a situation where I call them on it in a respectful way, never rudely. Always in a respectful way.

They either just ignore you and keep going, or they, in this case, to give him credit, he said, "No, no, no. I am absolutely going to listen," and I went, "Okay," so we went through it. At the end of the day, we found a common understanding of where he was potentially still correct in some of his views and where we were able to sway him away from some of the other views he had. So, we had a good compromise, and that was really great. There have been other times where I actually was even more pleased with the outcome, which is where it was one-on-one, and I was able to say, "You know what, this isn't really getting anywhere. You're just not going to listen. I really wish you would, because it would be great."

"I don't know what's going on with you, but something's up." Then they went, "Well, I'm really sorry. I really didn't mean to be a jerk. I'm going through a divorce. It's really ugly. Everything to me is just upsetting right now. There's been those different situations. Now, again, I told you a little bit ago, there's two people I can name right now that I deal with every day that literally just want to make everybody else's life miserable except theirs, and I would be miserable if I spent my days making everybody else's life miserable, but they do. They love it. What I can tell you there, is a little different, where it's not coming at me. It's coming in targeted at someone else.

There was a young woman years ago, and he was absolutely rude to her because he thought he could be. I stopped the meeting. I said, "You know what? This is not helpful. We're not getting anywhere. Quite frankly, it's not very effective what you're trying to do here. Let's just call it and let's follow up after." When the meeting ended, I pulled her aside and I said, "I want to tell you something," and this is an old broad telling a young elegant woman, "You don't need to put up with that, and you shouldn't put up with that." What that was, was wrong.

Helping the next generation know that they don't have to put up with it is good. You don't have to put up with that egomaniac. They are just angry at the world. That guy is never going to listen to anybody. So, you have to be able to read. There's people who come in with, I call it ego boxing. They're just having a bad day. They're just looking for a fight, and you have to find a way to talk them down, not escalate them. I'm not saying accept their behaviour, but you need to be able to read them. Then there's the people that just want to make everybody else's life's miserable. You just have to get yourself out of that. You just do.

Chelsea: I think there was a third option.

Debi: You absolutely walk away, or you make sure that you protect everybody around you, regardless of how it comes at you. There are times where I go, "You know what? It's my fault." Even if it actually wasn't my fault, I do it because I don't want all the shrapnel to hit everybody else.

Chelsea: Talking about bosses, how did your childhood shape you?

Debi: My mother was a complicated human, and she definitely took it out on me. I don't know why me, I was the second born, but she literally had my elder sister, and within a few weeks was pregnant with me. So, it masked on a bit a very happy time. They had no money. My mum had a brilliant brain. She was really impressive. I think her dreams just were fading away and she was just angry at the world. I think I didn't help, and I cried from the second I was born. I was a very unhappy colicky baby. I lived in being locked in a playpen in the bathrooms so that my mom could get a break.

I think it's like a puppy who knows they're not really wanted. It was like that, from the time I was born, I just knew it. I think that she was always guilty about that, and she always felt guilty about that, but the more guilty she felt, the more insecure she felt. The less she was able to share her vulnerability and the more she had to pretend like she could do it all, I took the branch. It was a stressful relationship. I think, being beaten as a kid ... I wasn't beaten with an electrical prod or anything. Definitely it was hard.

I remember watching the movie, Working Girl, and knowing that it was going to be me. I was going to be successful and I was going to ... They were, at one point in that movie, planning out this big thing that was going wrong, and I was so taken by it, and I forgot about everything else I was taught about. I think I really believed that, if I could do well in work, then I could recover from anything I felt, and I could do really good things. I just believed, I really, really believed. I was one of those kids who just obsessed about being a business woman or being successful in the workplace.

Successful, every time I say, that word bothers me, because I don't mean successful, that other people aren't successful. I just mean that my brain was so consumed with, I am going to be okay and I'm going to be able to have a family and put food on the table, and be able to do good things at work. That's what I meant by successful in my brain. So, it fuelled me. It fuelled me and I think it was a place where I could go and fantasy is about a great future and not be sad about being afraid or being bullied, or whatever.

It just fuelled me to do and to work and to achieve my dream. That was all. I mean, I would have loved to have been a doctor. That was my real dream. I would have loved to have been a surgeon or a doctor. It was always what I wanted to be, but there was no way I was going eight years university. Who would pay for that? There was no way. I found that thing, and again, working girl really is the moment where I saw that I could achieve in the workplace.

Chelsea: Do you think your childhood made you empathetic?

Debi: Yep. It made me everything. I would never wish anyone to be ... I wasn't neglected. Neglected isn't the word. I was going to say neglected. I wasn't neglected. I had tons of attention. It just was the wrong attention.

Chelsea: What did you resolve to do or not to do as a result of your childhood?

Debi: I resolved I would never strike one of my children. I would always walk away when I was about to say something that I regretted because I was mad, or feeling vulnerable and just lashing out, that I would stop myself, and that I would always be able to work hard enough to be able to afford to give my kids more than I was able to have, like the opportunity to have education, the opportunity to build your own future the way you wanted to, the opportunity to not have to worry about where your next meal was coming from. I wanted that for my kids.

Chelsea: You were a young mother of three, and you had Cody at 19. What was that like?

Debi: Technically, he was born when I was 20, but I was pregnant with him at 19, and it was horrifying. It was the scariest thing in the whole world. It's like, who in their right mind raises a kid at 20 years old? No one who's done it would say it was a smart thing to do. I don't have a religious or an intellectual debate on what other people should do in that situation, but it never dawned on me to do anything other than have a kid at 20.

Chelsea: You had a lot of responsibility growing up and then immediately found yourself as young mom. Did you feel overwhelmed?

Debi: It's interesting. That is a gift I got, the gift to be able to take a breath and go, you know what? It's going to be okay. I just do that naturally. It's part of me. I don't know if it was nurture or nature, but I have a very natural step in my reaction to just calm. I don't feel overwhelmed for long. It's literally within seconds of bad news or a worrisome situation, or oh my God, the house is going to fall down. Okay, we should probably do something about it. Let's put a plan in place. I just don't panic. When you can see a path, you can deal with anything.

Here's this mom with a kid who needs to pay bills. How the heck is that going to happen? It's hard being a young mom. I see moms now, and I'm like, oh my God, how did I deal with the crying in the middle of the night and working during the day? Honestly, I don't even remember. I think you block out those moments. I'm sure I wasn't the best. I am sure there were moments where I was like, you know what? Let me put a little bit of oatmeal into the formula to make it thicker so you'll sleep through the night. They're just things that you do.

You're crying, so, okay, we're going to go to McDonald's. Everybody want to go to McDonald's? Okay, let's go to McDonald's cause it'll give us a little bit of peace. We'll all be happy for an hour at the Playland at McDonald's. You find coping mechanisms.

Chelsea: What do you think being a good person is? What do you think that looks like?

Debi: You know what? I was raised with a really corny saying, and I get that it's corny, do unto others as you'd have them do onto you. I can't remember the exact poem. I think I had each one of you kids read it, but it's about understanding what to feed inside of you. If you wake up and you feel sad, feel sad, but move on. If you wake up and you feel jealous of someone else, stop it. Stop feeding that wolf as this poem says. I just think being good is to stop yourself whenever you start to go to the side of feeling selfish.

Sometimes you're going to pick selfish, and sometimes you're going to pick silly, and sometimes you're going to pick irresponsible. But if you work every day to try and avoid picking the selfish or the mean, or the jealous side of every human, then I think that makes you a good person. When you pick the not so good side and the consequences affect someone else, if you're big enough to take accountability for that, I think you're a good person. That's how I think.

Chelsea: What advice do you have for women who aspire to become leaders like you, especially in a male dominated industry?

Debi: What I would tell somebody, a young woman who wanted to be successful in her career is I would say, don't try to be successful in your career. Try to enjoy your work, try and enjoy what you are doing every day and try and give back. If you do that, you actually will wake up one day and realize that you've achieved the success that when you were younger, you aspired to. These young individuals who come to me, male, female, both, and say, "What do I do?" I will tell you two things, write your obituary first. What is it that you want people to say about you when you're gone, and then focus on living that life that you believe you want people to have thought, said about you when you die.

Sit down and figure out what is it that you want to be known for after you're gone. You want to be somebody who supported women, or you want to be somebody who always tried to lead a team with a healthy disposition, or you want to be somebody who was worth $10 million, or you want to be somebody ... Think about what you want that obituary to say, then live that life and don't try and succeed. For me, I just want to be known as somebody who always tried to make other people's lives better. That's it. That's all. That's all.

Chelsea: You said you don't like how women are maybe brought up to think that they have to be all encompassing, where men only have to be successful.

Debi: Yeah, there's so many things wrong with stereotyping women and men. It's so mean actually, because some guys are super awesome at everything, and some guys are just really good at being a dad, and some guys are really good at going to work, and being a dad is like overwhelming to them. Some women are not ... I never baked cookies when you were growing up. When I tried, I'd generally burnt myself or someone else. I just was never a good cook. Dad was the cook, right? To stereotype that you have to be everything is just downright cruel.

You want to be an executive and barely parent ... Your kids don't have kids, or have a conversation about the fact, I love you kids, but I'm just ... This is who I am. You guys put up with a lot from me of choosing work over playing in the backyard. I would never choose work over when you guys needed me, but I did choose work on when you guys wanted me, whereas dad always chose you guys first. So, you had a lot of that balance in the household. I just think it's a real big disappointment that our world has learned so much about history and not about that.

Just let people be who they're going to be. You want to be a model, be a model. You want to be a mom, be a mom. You want to be a mom and work, be a mom and work. You want to work and build a career and obsess over work, do that, but don't feel guilty because you weren't perfect. However, do be reflective when you need to get more balanced. I should have been out riding bikes with you guys when you were teenagers. I never did because I was never raised to go ride a bike. But as an old lady, I'm going to be out riding my bike.

Chelsea: Oh, we're not keeping score between you and dad. Don't worry. Wait, yes we are. I'm just joking.

Debi: Yes, we are.

Chelsea: How did you feel?

Debi: We did it.

Chelsea: We did it.

I hope you enjoyed this episode with my mother as much as I did, and thank you for listening. Please join me back here in two weeks for my conversation with Bianca Osbourne. Not only is Bianca a lover of food and expert chef, she is on a quest to help Canadians rise to their healthiest and highest selves. Just in time for the new year, Bianca will be giving us a taste of her unconventional action-based approach to manifestation. If you enjoyed this podcast, please hit subscribe, share with your friends and visit us at millie.ca.

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